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Along Came A Spider
By Matt Margolis | August 23, 2004
John Kerry, clearly unable to stand up for himself, has filed a complaint with the FEC accusing the Bush campaign of illegally coordinating with the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth with ads that expose Kerry’s fabrications of his war record.
Now, while the media might overlook this, Kerry is the one who actually tight with the “shadowy groups” such as MoveOn.Org. Kevin over at Blogs For Bush has the scoop.
It’s pretty sad the way Kerry is reacting. In my view, it proves a number of things:
- Kerry has something to hide
- Kerry doesn’t have the stomach to handle criticism
- Kerry is in the process of a major meltdown.
- Kerry knows he is weak on the war on terror, thus has to focus everything on his Vietnam service - which is now being criticized by those who served with him
This will be interesting to watch because ever minute Kerry spends trying to defend his Vietnam service the more time and money he is wasting on an irrelevant issue.
It is sad that this campaign has come to this… Kerry has run a campaign on Vietnam rather than the war on terror - and the latter is more important to America today. This is Kerry’s fault, and it’s going to continue to hurt him.
Topics: John Kerry Watch |
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August 23rd, 2004 at 12:45 pm
I disagree that it’s sad the Kerry campaign has come to such a state. I think what would really be sad is if the mainstream press is ultimately successful in foisting this empty suit on us as our next president, which they are clearly trying to do with their unbalanced reporting.
August 23rd, 2004 at 5:44 pm
Ban anti-liberal speech!
Burn anti-liberal books!
No guns for citizens!
Give all your wealth (but not mine) to the state!
Zeig Heil! Zeig Heil! Zeig Heil!
August 23rd, 2004 at 5:53 pm
kerry is a botox injected wimp… he’s a big fat cry baby. He can’t handle the rigors of a campaign, thus, how can we expect him to handle the rigors of the presidency?
We can’t.
Vote Bush. Your life depends on it.
August 23rd, 2004 at 7:18 pm
This is the best part about watching Bush campaign. He allows his opponents to continue to hurl accusations at him, doesn’t really respond and then around August begins to really lays the smackdown on them leading right up to election day.
I am SO looking forward to watching all of the liberals have strokes on November 2nd when Bush is re-elected. Kerry’s campaign has completely jumped the shark and they have NOTHING left to hurl at Bush. He is basically immune to their attacks now and can sit back and just drill down on the issues. Kerry has no choice but to act shrill and haughty and defensive. The contrasts are going to be so stark that the next few months should completely do Kerry in.
GO DUBYA!
August 24th, 2004 at 1:25 pm
Add this to the long list of predictions Matt has not made
1. The capture of Saddam Hussein would end the insurgency.
2. The Dow would go to 11,000 by the spring of 2004.
3. The Abu Ghraib prison scandal was not important at all and was proper procedure.
4. The gay marriage amendment would pass overwhelmingly through Congress.
5. Fahrenheit 911 would flop at the Box Office.
6. WMDs would be found in Iraq (this time for sure, really).
7. Richard Clarke (O’Neill, Beers, McCain, Cleland, insert name here) is a traitor who turned on Bush for no reason at all.
8. Teresa Kerry is wrong for speaking her mind because women should be silent, and shut up.
9. Bush would never back down to insurgents in Fallujah or Najaf and the whole insurgency would be proven to be a lie of the liberal media.
10. Bush would not eliminate overtime pay.
August 24th, 2004 at 2:16 pm
Ill fuck a Con broad but Ill never be seen with her. the swiftboat (shortbus) liars can do what the shrub twins been doing for years, suck my long, hard leftwing dick!
August 24th, 2004 at 9:42 pm
Matt, could it be that the reason that Kerry’s reaction proves various implausible propositions, “in your view” is that your view doesn’t match reality, for the reason that you’re stupid? Kerry has caught Bush violating the law, and he is taking his action both to emphasize that and to obtain whatever remedy is possible, and to tie the Bush campaign to the Not-So-Swift Liars. These guys have been absolutely proven to be liars, and the more Kerry ties Bush to them in the public mind, the better it is for him.
Kerry can handle criticism just fine; what he doesn’t like is lies. The fact that you don’t mind lies that smear veterans tells us all we need to know about your integrity.
August 24th, 2004 at 9:58 pm
Wow, Mr. Margolis, what a profound an brilliant man you are! Clearly you are a master intellect and a superior scholar. So tell me, from what fine institution of higher learning did you receive your sixth grade diploma? You simple minded twit! Your slack-jawed vacant-eyed photo clearly shows you to be a backwoods, inbred knuckle dragger.
August 25th, 2004 at 12:06 am
I graduated summa cum laude and with university honors in architectural engineering … I’m currently going for my masters degree in architecture.
what was that?
August 25th, 2004 at 12:49 am
Hey the Um Yeah above wasnt actually me but oddly he can describe my penis. Oh and Matt so what? Build me a carport bitch.
August 25th, 2004 at 1:43 pm
Dear Nervous Leftist Kerry for president hopefuls.
I am laughing at you.. Gone are the graceful retorts to conservative posts. Gone are the fact based (ok semi-fact based) responses to conservative posts. Gone is also your cool to conservative posts.
You have finally unleashed your version of the can of whoop ass… Profanity and desperation. You guys are twisting and so is your candidate. His medals may be up for argument for or against, but not his testimony. Not his admitance of atrocities on the Dick Cavaet show. He is DONE. I see forks sticking in him all over the place. I am sure you will respond with some vecirel comment that you learned from M. Moore’s website….doesn’t matter….Kerry is done.. gone. as Kerry would say Bonjour
August 25th, 2004 at 1:46 pm
And yet Kerry is still winning….
August 25th, 2004 at 3:12 pm
Well these comments have been one big circle jerk. Kerry has been forced to react. Its silly to say hes ignoring the issues by responding to a ferocious personal attack meant to smear him that unfortunately is working. Bush has been on vacation again, but he hasn’t been one to talk about the issues, his ad campaign has been predominately negative or inane, theres been little talk about what he’ll actual do with another four years in office.
August 25th, 2004 at 5:52 pm
Not for long ummy
August 25th, 2004 at 11:10 pm
Did John Kerry hurt American P.O.W.’s and troops in the field with his vile and largely wrong accusations about attrocities? Why do YOU lefty wackos think that these guys still HATE him after 35 years?
August 26th, 2004 at 3:18 am
People need to vent sometimes, there’s a place for that.I scream at my TV all the time, as if that yelling would alter something I think if you are a lefty posting here you should at least mind your Ps and Qs a bit. If you come here as a vandal they will think us all vandals. Anywhoo..
I think this conversation is going nowhere because there’s too many issues all tangled up together.
there is…
1. First there dispute about the details, what actually happened (was there fire as he pulled the guy of the river, did Kerry shoot himself to get his medals etc.)
2.Then there is the Claim ( Compliments of Rush Limbaugh ) that Kerry won’t release his military records. about what really happened They are on Kerry’s web site. And then the side issue of some claiming these records to be false.
Mostly what the posters here a focusing on is Kerry’s reaction to the debates and the Kerry’s reaction to the swiftboat ad itself.
Just out of curiosity, is there anybody here who believes that Kerry Shot himself to get his medals, or that he chased down a young boy who was running away from him and shot him in the back, or that his boat was not under fire when he pulled one of his crew out of the river, but later embellished the account for purposes of careerism. To me, these claims (especially the first two) just don’t…well there’s just a “Clinton is a murderer and drug runner” quality to it. Is there some factual, physical evidence to support these claims?
I think that the whole issue exists because the nation is divided over the Vietnam War itself. People tend to fall into two camps. If you beleive the war was just, and needed to be fought and was a good use of american lives, for good cause, then you tend to see the Kerrys 1972 speech as Treason and filled with vile claims that never happened. You tend to see the prostest at home as undermining to troops abroad. I can understand that. makes perfect sense.
If you see the Vietnam War… as a War that was on morally shaky ground to begin with, Had no exit strategy, and was getting way out of control with no end in sight, then you tend to see Kerrys 1972 speech not as treason, but as his attempt to expose those who would send young men to war, to the horrors of war. You tend to see the protest at home as an attempt to end the whole mess.
I’ve heard the entire 1972 speech, and when I heard the ad for the first time, believe me I… get how vets could from camp one would hear that.
If you happen to be one of the few who are not already deeply settled into either camp ,and have never heard the entire speech and just seen the ad, it might make a difference for you.
Ed, jeez louise, I’ve tried about a dozen times to post the links you requested, we never got to finish our conversation about florida 2000. The count and recount is one issue. The purging of black voters is another.
“African Americans were nearly 10 times as likely as whites to have their ballots rejected in the Florida 2000 Presidential election”.
–Washington Post, June 5, 2001
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/04/politics/main520754.shtml
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/3194224.htm?1c
http://www.naacp.org/work/voter/voting_rights.shtml
-Chicago43
August 26th, 2004 at 4:03 am
“long, hard, leftwing dick”
The classic example of an oxymoron.
August 26th, 2004 at 9:55 am
Chicago -
Good try at a summary, but I think that the Swift Vet issues were misstated. The point of the Swift Boat vets is that John Kerry often inflated his actions in what appeared to them at the time to be a planned attempt to pad his political resume. Then, later he greatly hurt them and others with his actions in VVAW. Also, since then he has used his service – after rejecting it, to political gain.
As to specifics:
1. There is doubt about Kerry’s first Purple Heart. Not that he shot himself – but that he accidentally wounded himself and that the wound was EXTREMELY minor.
2. The Sampan incident is a contrast of two John Kerry stories. In his book and telling stories he has spoken about the tragic death of a father and son in a Sampan search. BUT, in his reports it was a large group of Viet Cong.
3. Cambodia. Kerry claimed in books and in the Senate that Nixon sent him to Cambodia. But, Nixon wasn’t president and NO other Swift Boat vets agree that they were in Cambodia. He has danced all around this since it was revealed. Now he claims it may have been the next month and he may have only been on the border. MUCH different from his statements while attacking Reagan in the Senate.
4. Kerry’s actions in VVAW were disgraceful. And, this is the root of the hatred against him. His statements about atrocities based upon the flawed Winter Soldier study were full of crap. Many of the respondents to that survey never went to Viet Nam. He helped the enemy and hurt our POW’s and troops. And frankly, THAT is the worst thing.
But, the really big issue NOW should be the total crap that the 527’s are spewing in coordination with the Kerry campaign. MoveOn.org, ACT, and others have spent EIGHT TIMES what the swifties have. They have the same donors as the democrats. And, there have been many ties into the Kerry campaign and into the DNC. Yet NO “main-stream” news organization is willing to talk about it. The Democrats have created an atmosphere of hate and now act shocked at the backlash. The hypocrisy is just TOO much. And, these Swift boat guys are all decorated Viet Nam vets who have a First Amendment right to speak their views. The Kerry attemps to stifle them (rather than just ignore them) should frighten Americans no matter what party they pull for. The guy is more devious than Richard Nixon.
August 26th, 2004 at 11:22 am
Actually Kahn a lot of them are on record talking about how brave etc. Kerry is. One is forced to conclude 35 years later they hate Kerry so much because gobs of GOP money are getting them to.
August 26th, 2004 at 12:00 pm
Purple Hearts are still awarded for friendly fire injuries. This is a great deal of doubt about this, one SBVT claims he was on the boat and there was no enemy fire while two other veterans on the boat claim there were only 3 people there and that there was enemy fire. The medic who claims to have treated Kerry can’t prove it, and Kerry can’t prove he did not, the medic who signed the injury report is dead.
The intense focus on his record is unwarranted, no other veteran politicians have had their war records so scrutinized even when they have made it a credential. It can be understood why many veterans hate what he said to Congress in 1971, but he was summarizing what the Winter Soldier investigation had found, not making his own personal claims or blaming every soldier. Why not blame Congress for treason by allowing him to testify The Winter Soldier investigation itself has been criticized a great deal but many claims about its confessions being falsified are misplaced. One of the organizers was found not to have served in Vietnam but he didn’t testify, there were also several people incorrectly said to have testified there but were actually quoted in a book that included Winter Soldier testimonies.
August 26th, 2004 at 12:36 pm
Miles,
Your points about scrutiny are valid. Oh, were you talking about Kerry? I thought you were talking about Bush. John Kerry and his gang of 527’s and surrogates have made this an issue. They have jumped on the fact that GWBH can’t PROVE he was at his guard unit as PROOF he was NOT. And, Kerry has used Viet Nam since the beginning of his campaign (certainly every ad I saw here in Virginia centered on it) to help counter his rightly perceived left wing positions on defense. So - who has made service 35 years ago an issue?
The Winter Soldier report WAS full of holes. Period. And, though he was ostensibly reporting on it - he came across as talking of his own experiences. His claiming to have commited attrocities on the Dick Cavett Show was NOT the only time he claimed this - it is merely convenient visual proof.
There IS ambiguity about Kerry’s claims and YOu have no proof that GOP money made these men say this. In fact, unless you can prove it - you have commited libel. These men are not public figures. But what about his Cambodia claims? And the Sanpam story? Here, we are contrasting a story we can prove as false and a set of multiple versions of a story that Kerry has told in speeches, print, and official reports. It is clear - and you should admit - that Kerry has lied about Cambodia and told multiple conflicting stories on the Sanpam incident and on others. Your failure to do so really lessens your credibility.
His anti-war activities were the launch platform for his career. How starnge that we look past them back at Viet Nam? Agreed - yet I have seen HIM and HIS CAMPAIGN throw the spotlight on Viet Nam. I am willing to argue against him on his record since then. But, there is little discussion of that record. Why not? Because he is a flaming left wing ultr-liberal.
August 26th, 2004 at 1:27 pm
Matt altered my post. He’s done it before and also dropped my posts entirely. He did make all of those predictions, BTW.
Those who tend to support President Bush practice a kind of cognative dissonance when it comes to circumstances they don’t like. If it doesn’t support your mindset, ignore it. There are exceptions. Kahn is one. But I’m tired of having the same argument again and again and again about whether WMDs were found in Iraq, or whether Iraq caused 911, or whether the Iraqi insurgency is a real and dangerous thing.
I think the Swift Boat controversy is pretty much played out. Bush is calling for an end because he’s inflicted as much damage on Kerry as he’s going to inflict. The story now seems to be breaking Kerry’s way and if I was Bush I’d try to end it now, too.
Actually this whole mess is a distraction from a very real War that is happening right now over in Iraq. A wacko Shiite Cleric that was a nobody four months ago is rising to power by denouncing the US and we are playing into his hands. That is a problem that is affecting us here and now, not a rehash of what happened 35 years ago.
August 26th, 2004 at 2:01 pm
But Jay what about Senator Kerry’s Senate accomplishments?
August 26th, 2004 at 2:16 pm
Okay. lots to respond to, and thanks to all for the thoughtful replies. Gives me lots to chew on.
Let’s start with Cambodia…
John O’Neil is just as inconsistent as Kerry is is when it comes to being in cambodia or not. O’Neil is claiming that neither Kerry nor any other U.S. crewman were in Cambodia at that time. Yet a newly released audiotape of O’Neill meeting with former President Richard Nixon in 1971 reveals that O’Neill told Nixon that he was in fact IN Cambodia on a swift boat during Vietnam.
If you are going to hold Kerry to this “you either are in cambodia or you are not” deal.
Then we can hold O’ Neil up to the same scrutiny.
Here is the direct link for windows media, or mpeg.
http://mediamatters.org/static/video/oneil-cambodia.wmv
http://mediamatters.org/static/video/oneil-cambodia.mp4
-Chicago43
August 26th, 2004 at 2:55 pm
I don’t care two whoops one way or another about who was in Cambodia in 1969 or who wasn’t.
And I don’t know note-for-note Kerry’s record in the Senate, but I’m not going to take what Bush campaign ads say about him as anything resembling the truth.
August 26th, 2004 at 5:00 pm
But Jay - If Kerry and his supporters won’t talk about his senate record - why NOT beleive Bush on it? Or - look it up yourself. The truth is that the silence is deafening.
Oh and as to Najaf - case closed. He is not all that popular. His ONLY threat was that he would make the Marines kill him in the mosque (remember that scene in Blazing Saddles where the sherrif pulls the gun on himself?)
And - Bush has called for ALL 527 negative crap to stop - something the hypocrit Dems have NOT called for.
And - just to gloat
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=1&u=/latimests/20040826/ts_latimes/bushedgesaheadofkerryforthe1sttime
And - ignore what and don’t pay attention to what - Bullshit. I do tend to ignore irrelevent arguments. Your side makes lots of them.
August 26th, 2004 at 5:08 pm
Najaf-
http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/20040826/D84N4QDO3.html
Too bad, some Marine could have used the navy Cross that would have come with THAT shot…
August 26th, 2004 at 7:17 pm
Ok Chicago, since Jay can’t actually give us Kerry’s Senate accomplishments (or heck how about any Lt Gov accomplishments) how about you?
Ok just answer four questions for me. I shameless stole these:
Surely a well qualified Presidential candidate who has served in the Senate could answer ANYe four questions.
Am I expecting too much? Is the only thing Kerry has going for him is his four months on the ground in Vietnam? Is Kerry like Austin Powers, cryogenically frozen for 40 years? What ISs mojo?
August 26th, 2004 at 7:17 pm
•November 2000…Bush Opposes McCain Feingold Finance Reform
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2000/11/3/73757.shtml
•January 2001…Bush Opposes McCain Feingold Finance Reform
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/1/24/201442.shtml
•March 2001 Bush Approves McCain Feingold Finance Reform bill
•Democrats Favor Bill…Republicans oppose…Dems win, Bill passes
48 of the Senate’s 50 Democrats favored the bill, along with 11 Republicans and Sen. James Jeffords, an independent from Vermont.
•Democratic Sens. John Breaux of Louisiana and Ben Nelson of Nebraska joined 38 Republicans in opposing the measure.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/03/20/campaign.finance/
•Scott Mc Clellan Quote: “The President thought that we got rid of all of this kind of soft money activity when he signed the campaign finance reforms into law. Apparently Senator Kerry was against this soft money activity previously, too. Now he appears to be for it, as long as it benefits his campaign.”
Bush fights the bill, flip flops, then takes credit for its passing it, then paints Kerry as a flip flopper.
I invite you to consider that Democrats have not cornered the market on hypocrisy.
-Chicago43
August 26th, 2004 at 7:55 pm
Sorry Jay I missed your pearl of wisdom on the first read.
“Note-for-note”?!?
I have been asking for ANYo far I have heard nothing but static. You are the Kerry supporter, how about ONE, just ONE accomplishment of Kerry.
You are tired of Kerry being “smeared” on Vietnam. I have made multiple suggestions that we talk about what Kerry has done since then. In response all we hear is that “Bush is being mean to Kerry concerning Vietnam.”
Ok fine Kerry was a hero in Vietnam. He was right to protest afterward. He was right to call his fellow soldiers war criminals. The swift boat vets are nothing more than opportunistic liars who are being paid bribe money by Bush-Cheney ’04. Does that cover all the points for you? (Being generous to you for the sake of argument.)
Now can we talk about what Kerry has done in the past oh call it two decades? Hmmm?
“I don’t know note-for-note Kerry’s record…” Do you know ANYTHINGerry? Other than he was in Vietnam and is not Bush?
You claimed Matt altered your posts. Perhaps, if he did it at all – such claims are generally the province of those who are out of their depth (But but but I would have said it better if the mean ole moderator hadn’t changed things!), it is only to prevent you looking more foolish than you already do.
Or perhaps you are a Rove operative who is helping Matt get pumped up for his coverage of the RNC by showing what clueless opponents the donks are.
August 26th, 2004 at 7:59 pm
Ack, that’s what I get for composing my comments in Word and cut n pasting them in. *shrug* I blame Bill Gates.
August 26th, 2004 at 8:07 pm
WRONG Chicago - the question was about Kerry - you dolt! You get ZERO points, and sadly you are a loser! L-O-S-E-R!!!!!
Cannon, can I try now? The question was trick! He didn’t author legistlation on ANY of those subjects right?
August 26th, 2004 at 8:45 pm
Kahn-
That’s a fair question. Thanks for asking.
I’ll be back an with that answer directly.
Maybe you have something to share with Me about Kerry’s record I did not know. Maybe I have something about Bush’s record you did not know. I look forward to that possibilty.
What would be a better outcome? To learn something new, or to get some emotional zing out of feeling victorious in a conversation?
I’m not here to get mean and nasty with anyone. I have room for all the name calling and what-not… that’s fine, but the vague angry assertions routine just kind of undermines whatever point you are attempting to make.
-Chicago43
August 26th, 2004 at 9:22 pm
Zero points for not responding to the question. You want to skip Viet Nam and VVAW? Then YOU tell ME why I should for Kerry. Focus on Kerry for a second can’t you? Take a Ritlin if you need to.
Since he has authored no legistlation on virtually any subject, just who is John F. Kerry? I think I know his positions on somethings - clue me in…and correct my mistakes oh wise one.
1 . Abortion
Personally thinks its murder but supports womans right to choose. (to choose murder? - I don’t get it)
2. Taxes
Wants to raise taxes to end the defecit, but also has several grandiose spending plans. And, the taxes will not have a bad impact on the economy.
3. Defense, Intelligence, and weapons systems?
I think he has ignored his responsibilities here and consistentlt voted against virtually everything defense or Intel related. Correct me please.
The War in Iraq girst one and second one.
You tell me - was he for the first one or against it?
Was he for the second one or not? Would he have voted for it given current knowledge or not? Why did he vote against funding?
Gay marriage - I have directly heard him say he was for a state amendment (in Missouri) and against one (in Mass). What is his position?
How will his tax and spend plan get the economy further along?
Do you really think the French and Germans are going to help in Iraq because Johnny boy asks them real real nice?
He says he is a hunter and for guns rights. But, he has supported the mis-named assault weapons ban and tried to define ANY weapon (including my 11 year olds .22) as an assault weapon because it has a magazine. Along with Feinstein and Kennedy he has pushed legistlation defining anything except single shot and double barrel shotguns as assault weapons. Does that really make sense to you?
I admit, I have my interests and priorities and they may not match up with yours. Convince me. (honestly, I’m just expecting insults - that is the typical lib reply to posts like this)
August 27th, 2004 at 6:44 am
Kahn-
You were asking about Kerry’s Record. I think you must have heard a Dick Cheney speech or two, But before I go into that lets just put your question in proper perspective.
1. The number of bills that bear your name is a poor measure of legislative accomplishment. For example, Ted Kennedy, who most would acknowledge as the most accomplished Democratic Senator in a generation, has had just 9 bills signed into law in 10 years. Of the more than 400 bills Kennedy sponsored in 108th, 105th and 104th Congresses none were signed into law. And Bill Frist, the Republican Majority Leader, has sponsored 88 bills in the 108th Congress and zero have become law. In the 107th Congress, Frist sponsored 52 bills and 1 became law. It was a bill to authorize and urge the President to promote democracy in Zimbabwe.
2. If you are insisting we judge Kerry by the number of bills he sponsored and then passed the senate, that number would be 57.
Here is a link that lists all 57 in complete detail.
http://www.aflcio.org/issuespolitics/politics/kerry_bills.cfm
3. I would add to that list that, He and John McCain negotiated an agreement with Vietnam to provide a full accounting for POW-MIAs.
4. Cheney has been outright lying about Kerry’s record on the campaign trail lately. That must be where you got the idea he has not accomplished anything
5. Dick Cheney served in the Congress for 11 years. During that period the number of bills he sponsored and then were passed, is two.
http://blog.johnkerry.com/rapidresponse/archives/002321.html
6. Here is another example of why you have the notion Kerry has accomplished didley pooh, W has been outright lying as well .Kerry discovered a secret slush fund in the NRO, This is a branch of Intelligence that handles satellites (They wanted their own big fancy building and so were building a big wad of cash and not telling congress about it) So he Proposed cutting off their funding, as did Republican Arlen Spectre. Bush managed somehow to turn this into a yet another smear opportunity…
”Yesterday, President Bush told a crowd of supporters in Houston that, back in 1995, two years after the first terrorist attack on the World Trade Center, Sen. John Kerry introduced legislation to cut the intelligence budget by $1.5 billion. “Once again, Sen. Kerry is trying to have it both ways,” the president said. “He’s for good intelligence; yet he was willing to gut the intelligence services. And that is no way to lead a nation in a time of war.” Bush further charged that Kerry’s bill was “so deeply irresponsible that he didn’t have a single-co-sponsor in the United States Senate.” Here are the links.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2096874/
http://www.cdi.org/terrorism/intel-funding.cfm
You keep changing subjects. I am happy to go wherever you want to take this conversation. Forgive me if my responses are not as quick as you would like, I do have to eat dinner and sleep every so often. Can probably squeeze in some blogging Fri pm-Saturday am. I will be back then. It’s also polite to let other folks get a little air time on this as well.
P.S. The Swift Boat Veterans’ charges have largely been debunked. Reporters at the Los Angeles Times and the New York Times have both dismantled the allegations; on Tuesday morning, an L.A. Times editorial declared: “These charges against John Kerry are false. Or at least there is no good evidence that they are true.” Isn’t it funny how things seem true if lots of folks are talking about it? How easy would it be for us to make an big issue out of W’s military service?. Ask yourself why we have not. If you still Don’t get it, I’d be glad to introduce you Ann Richards, John McCain and Max Cleland. Or do your own homework and Google search Karl Rove, Lee Atwater. This aint the first time.
-Chicago43
August 27th, 2004 at 7:10 am
Chicago - define “no good evidence” - signed affidavits and competing versions of the same story by John Kerry himself? Got a history book? Was Richard Nixon President during Christmas day 1968? No – the L.A. Times says no good evidence because they choose to discount the testimony of hundreds of people. And, you both choose to lump all the specific charges into one big group you call “these charges”. This includes by the way Kerry’s Senate testimony as head of VVAW. Do you deny it happened? And do you deny it hurt American POW’s and troops in the field?
As to the legislative accomplishments- Two ways to look at it I guess. The history you paint is certainly extremely liberal. Oh, the NRO….The Washington Post exposed the slush fund for their building complex in Chantilly, VA AFTER the building was built. Turned out that because their budget was black (top secret) they were legally in the right. Kerry did NOT expose it. And, his answer was to defund our spy satellite agency? Good plan.
August 27th, 2004 at 12:36 pm
No, Kahn. Moqtada Al-Sadr is a real and growing problem. Bush backed down to him once before, and this time we dodged the bullet only because Ali-Sistani stepped in. For all of Bush’s bluster it took an Iraqi cleric to defuse the situation.
With the exception of the capture of Saddam, Matt has completely ignored the Iraqi insurgency, and so have most of the GOP faithful. When I said that the insurgency wouldn’t end (that was eight onths ago) I got called gay. The worse it gets, the less you guys care.
Oh, and let’s get realistic here. You Bush Supporters can’t handle any kind of dissenting opinion. If you could, Bush wouldn’t have to speak only in front of prescreened groups of supporters.
August 27th, 2004 at 1:04 pm
Jay think about this…
http://www.suntimes.com/output/novak/cst-nws-novak27.html
August 28th, 2004 at 9:01 am
http://www.capitolhillblue.com/artman/publish/article_5125.shtml
Check out that link. It’s article taking the other side. Bottom line at the end of this is–we are talking about what happened 35 years ago. Now it has worked brilliantly, it fired up Bush’s base again (look at Matt talking about this constantly). It got a few undecideds to lean Bush so that he’s ahead in a few polls now. And most importantly it distracted what a major mess Iraq has become (at this point I say turn the damn country over to Ali Sistani).
If you believe the 250 or so anti-Kerry Swifties you have to believe in a conspiracy theory that Kerry engineered and involved much of the armed forces solely to get Purple Hearts that he would later throw away (?), including that preposterous Michelle Malkin theory that he shot himself in order to get a Purple Heart. Of course, most Bush Supporters believe John McCain has a Bastard Mulatto daughter from an adulterous affair with a Black whore and not an adopted daughter from Bangledesh, that Mrs. McCain is a drug addict, and that McCain himself is a traitor for spending five years in a prison camp. Also you have to believe triple-amputee Max Cleland (the guy Bush won’t acknowledge when he visits him at that pig farm with no horses that Bush bought in 1999) is part of a terrorist triumverate that includes Osama Been Forgotten, Saddam Hussein and Max Cleland.
August 28th, 2004 at 1:08 pm
Jay YOUll talking about Vietnam. WE are talking about Kerry’s Senate record.
*sigh* But if you still insist…
Yet all 250 swiftboat vets are nothing more than Bush shills. Hmmm the “Idjit-in-chief” Bush (after all he is soooo stooopid right?) is a master of conspiracy.
August 28th, 2004 at 10:11 pm
Jay, you talk a good story and had a could story going - but lost credibility several posts ago and you are now compounding it. Vote your idiot vote and we’ll just have to fight you at the polls.
August 29th, 2004 at 12:59 am
This is should be the 42nd post. I am responding to the Kahn’s 40th post comment for intended for jay…”Jay YOU talking about Vietnam. WE are talking about Kerry’s Senate record. There are 9 paragraphs.
1.Kahn- You keep implying that Jay and are changing subjects or not answering questions. Before we proceed any further, let’s review.
2. You were pointing out Kerry’s inconsistent account of the events in Cambodia. I offered undeniable evidence about John O’Neils inconsistencies regarding Cambodia, in my post #16
3. Your post # 26 you state…”And - Bush has called for ALL 527 negative crap to stop - something the hypocrite Dems have NOT called for.” I offered a few examples of Bush Admin hypocrisy in my post #29
4 Your post #30 after meeting a little resrtance from me on the SBVT issue you, change the subject to Kerry’s record…Quote ”Ok fine Kerry was a hero in Vietnam. He was right to protest afterward. He was right to call his fellow soldiers war criminals. The swift boat vets are nothing more than opportunistic liars who are being paid bribe money by Bush-Cheney ’04. Does that cover all the points for you? (Being generous to you for the sake of argument.) Now can we talk about what Kerry has done in the past oh call it two decades? Hmmm? Cannon, can I try now? The question was trick! He didn’t author legistlation on ANY of those subjects right?” end Quote.
5 Notice your post #32 starts with….WRONG Chicago - the question was about Kerry - you dolt! You get ZERO points, and sadly you are a loser! L-O-S-E-R!!!!!” ..What exactly is that all about? In what was that in response to? You seem poke fun at the mention of Matt removing posts. How do you explain this one?
6 My post # 33 I accept your challenge to state Kerry’s record as a Senator, and state I will return with that answer. I also state I am not here to be mean and nasty to anyone.
7 Your post # 34 Starts with quote “Zero points for not responding to the question. You want to skip Viet Nam and VVAW? Then YOU tell ME why I should for Kerry. Focus on Kerry for a second can’t you? Take a Ritlin if you need to.” You then go way, way off track and bring up the topics of Abortion, Taxes, Defense, The War in Iraq. Gay Marriage, Guns, The French and Germans. Who exactly is changing subjects?
8 My post #35 is a direct response to your cross examination regarding Kerry’s Senate accomplishments. The number one rule for any trial lawyer is never ask a question you don’t already know the answer to, you might end up giving the opposition a platform to make their case. I also offer you a few examples of how exactly you have been mis-informed on this issue.
9 I have fulfilled your challenge to explain Kerry’s Senate record. I respectfully offer you a challenge. Please explain to me the Bush Income Tax Cut Plan. I am particularly interested in the details surrounding the exact nature of the distributions year by year leading into its full implementation in the year 2010. Your side keeps insisting us liberals are hollering for bigger government and higher taxes. Baloney. That is the Sean Hannity Version of what a liberal wants. Lest you accuse me of changing subjects on you, revisit your post #34. You ask me to correct you on your assumptions about Kerry’s tax plan. I would be glad to fill you in on the finer details. However, I need first make sure you understand the Bush Tax plan already in place.
ps. Hang in there jay. I’ll be your wing man on the Iraq thing as soon as I can.
-Chicago43
August 29th, 2004 at 7:01 am
(I hope this posted correctly…)
Bzzt… Post 40 was mine (Cannon). You keep confusing Khan and I in your posts. I will just respond to comments directed toward me.
As far as post #30 JESUS H. I did it because I was freaking exasperated at you all, about Jay whining that we are “smearing Kerry on Vietnam.” Fine for the sake of moving on, everything you say about the Swiftboat vets is true. Bush is a liar directing the swiftboat crews through Karl Rove. The “web of connections” in the VRWC puts the Illuminati to shame as a bunch of two bit posers. Whereas moveon.org and any 527 given money by Soros is a paragon of virtue doing its patriotic duty to get THE TRUTH out.
I freaking agreed to every donk talking point just to get over discussion of a war which ended while I was still in diapers. FINE! Just to moveon, ANYONE WHO SAYS ANYTHING AGAINST KERRY’S TIME IN VIETNAM IS A REPUBLICAN LIAR. Does that satisfy “denouncing” the swift boat people. Or just like President Bush’s blanket condemnation of all 527s, my statement isn’t enough, right? OK SPECIFICALLY THE SWIFTBOAT VETS FOR TRUTH ARE LYING ON ANYTHING THEY SAY ABOUT KERRY! Is that enough? I have tried to moveon. No matter what we point out it is nothing more than a “partisan smear”. Ok let’s talk about Kerry’s Senate record. Because obvisously you are 100 percent correct about the Kerry vietnam issue. Geez anyone with half a brain can see that! Even his “taped” testimony in front of the Senate hearings in 1971 is a LIE! All part of the VRWC!
Now your whining that I am trying to change the subject and yet you accuse us of fixating on Vietnam. Well which is it? Shall we continue to talk about Vietnam or moveon?
As far as tax cuts of 2001 I will be happy to explain it. Opps in fact I did over at my site [url]http://cannon.blog-city.com/read/790562.htm[/url] gives the short answer. I have posted on at least three occasions concerning why the tax cut was a good thing.
To boil it down in a nutshell, the less the government takes the happier I am. I would like to see the rate as close to zero as possible. Anything toward that is a good thing. Let me ask you. You are for raising taxes … er taking away the tax cut (same thing), correct? Let me ask a further question: I have stated that a closer to zero tax rate is a good thing with about 15% in federal and 5% in state taxation as optimum, what is the upper number you would make you satisfied? 35% 45% 50% 60% 75% 90% or something like each and every dollar over let’s call it $500,000 per year in income should be taken by the government. After all no one needs that much money and there are sooooo many unfortunates which the government could help.
Even though it was Khan who posted 34 let me respond it. Khan said you and Jay want us to stop talking about Vietnam. We agree. We ask what about Kerry’s record should we talk about: if the following are out of bounds?
Well if we aren’t allowed to talk about these issues of the day and we are moveoning past the “LIES” about Kerry and Vietnam, WHAT THE HELL SHALL WE JUDGE KERRY ON? The fact that he is “NOT BUSH”?
As far as judging Kerry on his record. I asked four questions (out of the 20 multiple question questions I linked to). Your response was Kerry has authored and guided through to completion. I ask which of those 57 would he consider his biggest Intelligence initiative. I guess the answer looking at the 57 would be that
or would it be
How about healthcare is
or
the highlight of Senator Kerry’s healthcare initiatives?
Opps maybe the 104th Congress was a poor choice. After all 17.5% of his total (10/57) came from that 2 year term involving nothing more than directing the Department of Transportation to let a given ship actually accept/deliver goods and services to/from the US. I guess that could be used to bolster the case that he is about to work with a specific department. But it didn’t answer my four posted questions.
Man Matt (even though you probably won’t read this) having a preview button in the posting area would be nice.
August 29th, 2004 at 7:09 am
Well it mostly posted correct… I tried to but “hard rule” lines in the post to break up my individual points but it didn’t work. *shrug* It’s 4AM, I am at work, and I am very cranky due to my “special guests” who are staying at my hotel.
September 3rd, 2004 at 1:53 pm
*cricket chirpping in the the background*
*tap tap tap* “Is this thing on?”
Hmmm Chicago and Jay where are your comments on my “obviously wrong” take? Please show me how Kerry has a long legislative record. Please show me Kerry’s accomplishments as Lt. Gov.
Please tell me how we *should* judge Senator Kerry. Please tell me what the debate for the next 60 days should be about. (Since it shouldn’t be about Vietnam, or Iraq, or abortion, or the War on Terror, or guns, or gay marriage, or taxes, or defense.)
September 3rd, 2004 at 2:08 pm
Cannon,
I think they are stunned. I would expect the replies to be: Haliburton, 7 minutes, or Chaney was a draft dodger crap. Lets see what the polls out this week-end look like. I’ll bet its the beginning of the end for double-talking John. Personally, I’m not going to miss hearing from his wife the Billionaire B**ch.