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If You Want To Go By Polls…
-->..then more people approve of President Bush’s performance (44%), than they approve of Cindy Sheehan (35%)…
HAT TIP: Mark at B4B…
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..then more people approve of President Bush’s performance (44%), than they approve of Cindy Sheehan (35%)…
HAT TIP: Mark at B4B…
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Sheehan on Hardball:
MATTHEWS: Can I ask you a tough question? A very tough question.
SHEEHAN: Yes.
MATTHEWS: All right. If your son had been killed in Afghanistan, would you have a different feeling?
SHEEHAN: I don’t think so, Chris, because I believe that Afghanistan is almost the same thing. We’re fighting terrorism. Or terrorists, we’re saying. But they’re not contained in a country. This is an ideology and not an enemy. And we know that Iraq, Iraq had no terrorism. They were no threat to the United States of America.
MATTHEWS: But Afghanistan was harboring, the Taliban was harboring al-Qaida which is the group that attacked us on 9/11.
SHEEHAN: Well then we should have gone after al-Qaida and maybe not after the country of Afghanistan.
MATTHEWS: But that’s where they were being harbored. That’s where they were headquartered. Shouldn’t we go after their headquarters? Doesn’t that make sense?
SHEEHAN: Well, but there were a lot of innocent people killed in that invasion, too. … But I’m seeing that we’re sending our ground troops in to invade countries where the entire country wasn’t the problem. Especially Iraq. Iraq was no problem. And why do we send in invading armies to march into Afghanistan when we’re looking for a select group of people in that country?
So I believe that our troops should be brought home out of both places where we’re obviously not having any success in Afghanistan. Osama bin Laden is still on the loose and that’s who they told us was responsible for 9/11.
“But Afghanistan was harboring, the Taliban was harboring al-Qaida which is the group that attacked us on 9/11.”
Let it be stated for the official record that the big bad mean scary Taliban offered up Osama Bin Laden if the US would simply provide the evidence of their complicity. The US didn’t and wouldn’t probably because they had none. Think about it. Evidence is the be-all end-all of an investigation. If you were after someone you had 100% credible evidence against, you’d be begging for the chance to disclose the evidence against that person. Would Matt offer up an aquaintance for a definite living hell over a crime that aquaintance supposedly committed? Without seeing the evidence? Of course not. So to say the Taliban were “harboring” Bin Laden is misleading. Harbouring implies coordination and cooperation and the intention to defend and protect. Offering up Bin Laden to extradition when shown credible evidence? That’s not the act of a loyal ally.
Todd – a voice from the moral valley. Not exactly correct o’ lost one….
According to wikipdia:
1. “In a closed door session in October 2001, the U.S. presented evidence to NATO of bin Laden’s involvement in the September 11 attacks. NATO’s general secretary George Robertson described the evidence as clear and decisive and led the organization to invoke, for the first time in its history, article 5 in the NATO pact. Article 5 states that any attack on a member state is considered an attack against the entire alliance. [10] The evidence presented to NATO was never presented to the public for security reasons.”
2. “After the September 11 attacks, the United States asked the Taliban government of Afghanistan to “hand him over.” The Taliban counter-offer to try bin Laden in an Islamic court or extradite him to a third-party country was deemed unacceptable by the U.S. government.”
So – they offered to extradite him to someone else, or try him in an “Islamic” Court. Learn to read and think for yourself you liberal autotron.
Nothing you say can change the fact that the offer, whatever offer, was there. This third country thing is actually a twisted lie. Initially, their response was show us the evidence. The US wouldn’t. Why didn’t the US just show the evidence. You’re implying the Taliban were only going to extradite BinLaden to a sympathetic country where he wouldn’t be molested in any way. That’s not accurate. The evidence was demanded, as you would demand, as Bush and anyone would demand. You’re saying who’s guilty, but won’t show the evidence. Odd
Actually Matt, if you go by people who have an opinion, more people approve of Cindy Sheehan. For Bush, about 47.4% (47/99) of people who stated an opinion approve of his performance. Of Cindy, 47.9% (35/73) approved of her. Similarly, if you use the numbers for unfavorable opinions of Bush and Cindy, Bush pulls in higher numbers (52.5% vs. 52.05%)
You can’t use absolute numbers in this case, because a large percentage of people still don’t know who she is, and thus didn’t respond.
Todd,
That is not the way extradition works.
1. They were not giving him to us under ANY circumstance and 2. You normally only have to show he’s being charged. The Taliban wanted it proved. Just because they made an offer is not enough if that offer is crap.
And, what’s your point? That he was innocent? That the Taliban wasn’t harboring him? Well then describe circumstances where they would have been. Your thinking may or may not be clear – but your explanation is definitely fuzzy.
And QT
Support her right to grieve? – yes. Support her right to speak? – yes. Support her wacky radical left wing views? Definitely not. I have heard her spout every wacky liberal conspiracy theory out there. (She reminds me of the idiot girls at Smith College who have “anti-Columbus Day” rally’s every year. But noticeably do NOT offer to give up the Porsche and the condo in Aspen to a Native American family.) She says that we are an evil country. Well, the rest of her family does NOT support her and her husband filed for divorce last week. Other survivors and families are sharply critical of her. Personally, I think she was already leftist and was made insane by the death of her son.
So, am I supposed to be impressed that Bush’s approval rating is 9 points above that of a grieving mother?
And the majority of Americans disapprove of his job performance?
What’s the point of this post?
No, Todd. Bush’s approval rating is not higher than Sheehan’s. As I pointed out in my post above, of the people who expressed an opinion, Sheehan’s approval rating is higher than that of Bush. And her unfavorable rating is lower!
The difference is that almost everyone in this country knows who Bush is. A LOT of people have never heard of Sheehan, and thus have no opinion. So, you can’t use the same 100 point scale to determine how she is viewed.
Of course, there HAS been an unrelenting flood of anti-Bush propaganda from the liberal press for several years now. Every accusation takes its toll – no matter if unfounded or false. As soon as an attack starts to wane – they launch a new one. Considering we are at war with troops on the ground in multiple hostile environments – sedition is the kindest word that comes to mind.
And again – Cindy S. is insane – maybe the Dems will make her part of the party leadership?
Here is a question. How often do you see “Support Our Troops” stickers on cars that ALSO have Democrat stickers? Pretty damn rare.
QT – I just read your post. I suspected as much. Obviously, I was being sarcastic about the trotting out of the poll numbers. Thanks for the clarity.
Kahn – do you ever read the Economist? This is a publication that, to this day, supports the Iraq war and yet, has the guts to actually point out the huge fucking problems in Iraq. And they would only be considered “liberal” to someone on the far fringes of the right.
Don’t worry about the “liberal press” or any of your fantasies about “sedition” and “insanity”. Argue against what is written in the comments. I support the troops, I want to see a democracy emerge in Iraq, I want Al-Qaeda and any other type of terrorists to be defeated. Got that? Are you reading?
But obviously Bush etc. has fucked up their plan in Iraq. Is it really too much to ask him to be fucking honest with this country about the mistakes made and to re-assess our war plan? I want this war to be WON, not buried underneath another avalanche of “Stay the course” platitudes. Soldiers are dying and we better make damn sure that our Commander-in-Chief is paying attention.
So Todd – do You hava a support our troops sticker?
You guys are the type who would yell “We never should have started a football team!!!” When your team had a score against it.
Yes – I realize that Iraq is hard. But, the successes there have been grossly under-reported. Whether you believe it or not – there is a strong belief in the military that the Press lost Viet Nam – and that they are trying to do it again.
Something to think about: Viet Nam WAS messed up. We saw daily reports from the field telling us all about it. But, where are the daily field reports fro Iraq outside FOXNews? And, let me ask you a question. Why do you think the terrorists do one or two bombings a day instead of launching an all out attack? And – who do you think the targets of those attacks are? If you think they are against soldiers and innocent civilians – you are partly correct. But those attacks are designed to make the evening TV news in the US every night. It is a psychological warfare move of the purest form. And it works just great on weak-minded liberals who can’t defend the crazy rhetoric they spout to begin with.
Out of 1100 graduates from Princeton last year – 8 went into the military. Other Ivy League Universities have similar numbers. Meanwhile, the military is becoming more white, more conservative, and more Christian. And – they are willing to serve the country and put their own lives on the line. They will be tomorrow’s leaders. The Democratic Party has slit its wrists and is bleeding to death. It cannot and will not be trusted with National Security again.
Whatever the press does, or does not, report in Iraq has no bearing on the Shias and Sunnis hatred of each other, the infiltration of terrorist groups into Iraq, the inadequate U.S. troop levels, and the under-training of Iraqi troops.
Where were you when the Iraq invasion started, with all of the embedded journalists? The press most certainly was not against the war then – christ, the government couldn’t have asked for better PR!
Maybe people are getting queasy about the Iraq war because as it stands, we HAVE to stay and win. The WMD argument was a joke, the “liberated, grateful masses” was a joke, and the connection with Al-Qaeda was a joke. Because of this administration’s incompetence, we have an ugly, brutal, terrorist-breeding ground that we MUST fix. I want it to be fixed, but Bush et al have given this country so little honesty, straight talk, and vision that you could be excused for being cynical, cynical, cynical.
I don’t trust the Democrats with national security – I agree. But god knows I trust the Republicans even less.
The issues you raise are not as bad as you think – THAT is the point. The military people I talk to – I – talk to say we are winning and the vast majority of the country is OK. You are letting the terrorist technique work against you. And – the press is the willing accomplice of the terrorists in shaping your weak mind.
Three of the men on my street have been over and back. Two have done it twice. My nephew was an Intelligence officer there and is getting ready to go back – volunteered to go back early in fact. And, my sister-in-law was there as a navy Intelligence analyst. ALL say that the press is not reporting the truth, that we are winning, and that as near as they can tell the press is doing this on purpose.
Don’t let these jerks and their seditious crap get you down. But wait, you’ve been on their side all along haven’t you? Want me to give you a link to where you can buy a “Support Our Troops” sticker Todd? They are OUR troops you know. You don’t have a sticker do you? You hate them.
But then again – you thought it was OK to attack John Roberts children. You sad sad man.
Cindy Sheenan is just another American and her use of First amendment rights are not determined by a majority.
President Bush is a politician accountable to the American people, no longer directly through election but his conduct and program depend on it.
Its an asinine comparision which doesn’t do any damn good explaining the President’s lower than usual approval ratings.
This site illustrates my point:
http://www.wtv-zone.com/Mary/THISWILLMAKEYOUPROUD.HTML
This one also – not many “support our troops” stickers on the left…
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash7.htm
No liberals (progressives) willing to denounce personal attacks on Army wounded?
Last night Michael Savage was saying the Bush handling of Cindy Sheehan has been disastrous. Savage pointed out that Reagan would have invited Sheehan to see him, brought her behind closed doors, listened to her rant, said something polite and then moved on. Situation defused and Sheehan is forgotten in a few news cycles. Instead Bush runs away from her while the RNC smears and attacks her. You don’t attack a mother who lost her son in war. It looks horrible.
9 out of 10 Americans think Sheehan has a right to protest whether she’s wrong or not. And the new polls show Bush at his lowest approval rating ever.
Oh,and let’s get down to brass tacks here:
The insurgents, be they Sunni guerillas, Al Qaeda terrorists, or Muqtada Al Sadr’s Al Mehdi army; don’t give a damn about what we think. If public opinion won wars this war would have ended back when approval for it was 80%.
At best Iraq is going to be a long hard slog, and yes, I know guys in my neighborhood who were over there and have to go back. Just them having to keep going back doesn’t sound to me like Mr. Hannity’s “We-won-the-war-the-libruls-just-pretend-we-didn’t” isn’t true.
The recruiting office in my white ethnic blue collar very Catholic neighborhood is perpetually empty. No 18 year old is going to sign up to fight in the Middle East for $14000 a year when he can pour concrete or do demolition for more money. You would think the white, conservative, Christian Young Republicans on Fraternity Row out near the University would be full of eager recruits but the Armed Forces doesn’t even have an office out there.
Jay.
Wrong. Recruiting in the Army is off – slightly. Marine recruiting (which is pretty straight forward about what you’re getting into)is NOT off. And, re-enlistments in the Army and Marines are up. Re-enlistments for forces serving in Afghanistan and Iraq are up even more. And – people are volunteering to go back at surprising rates.
Terrorism – be it suicide bombers, roadside bombers, or those jerks who shot the children for taking candy from American soldiers is targeted at the civilian populations of Iraq and the western nations. The people killed are just a means to an end to the terrorist. This is a known fact, and is in fact the principle guiding the attacks. It’s how and why you fight a terrorist war.
The principle is called asymmetric warfare. You can not defeat your enemy on the battlefield – so you use guerilla tactics to sap his will to fight. The fact you are ignorant of this proves my point about the gap in military knowledge among liberals. It is independent of the Dem hatred of Bush – more of a trend accelerated by current events.
The military is becoming whiter, more conservative, and more Christian. The liberal colleges in the Northeast and in the West are not producing people willing to serve (as officers). This will have long term consequences for the Democratic Party as the rift between liberal and military grows and as the number of liberal leaders with military experience diminishes over time.
Time magazine ( I believe) ran an issue in June with the numbers and trends. I could be wrong on the month – have to check…
To Kahn, Matt,
Kahn you know you are full of shit and just like to argue-you don’t read and a sticker on the back of your gas guzzler isn’t going to help. You said you served you believe everything you read without investigating anything on your own doing your own interviews -you are just as guilty of spreading propaganda as you accuse the left or right peproting it. I remeber when you were all suckered into an online conversation with characters that I made up didn’t exist didn’t even exist. You beleieved everything you read and spent your time arguing back. In fact you tried to get me kicked off this site because you were fooled you were duped and you realized how gullible and stupis you were-good job whining to Matt to get me kicked ooff-run to mom while you can I camer back and found the backdoor. Youare still the fool but your opinions do keep me entertained. Good going idiots.
Allthe best
mike
Mike – you are the only admitted liar here. You used phrases when you pretended to be a Marine that were obviously wrong. Again – You admit even in this post that you lied and made up characters. I thought you had been banned from this group for being a liar.
That said – Bullshit. Read. What is you definition of asymetric warfare? Why do terroists target innocents? And – just what are the trends. I’m getting old now, but I’ll bet I could still kick your ass – I’d even wait for your boyfriend to climb off it first.
Military Science – download books or order free on-line.
But you liberals don’t really care about facts anyways – do you?
http://www.dodccrp.org/html2/pubs.html
Of course – I post a link to a site with documents to back me up – and you post this crap. Oh wait – August 27! Back from summer vacation eh? Well, i hope you are at a liberal college. Maybe you could intern for CBS and make up some fake documents for them.
Why are you so proud that you “suckered” us? You didn’t actually if you look back. You said you had been a Marine – but didn’t say it like a Marine would have. Still in a dorm? Too bad, I bet they don’t allow pets. What will you do for sex without your dalmation?
Jay – The figures I was discussing were from Newsweek – not Time. My mistake…
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8186600/site/newsweek/
to KAHN and MATT
Also in your world of absolutes and views on Abortion-either you are supporting it or not you should apply to yourself-IF YOU SUPPORT BUSH AND HIS WARnTHEN YOU SHOULD VOLUNTEER IF YOU DON”T THEN YOU ARE ALSO JUST FULL OF SHIT AND YOU KNOW IT! and yes Kahn we know you served so sign up again.
mike
KAHN
so sad-again back up what u say and enlist once again-oh I am Proud I suckered you to teach you a lesson-you believe everything you read period-you were fooled and U got angry. Instead of investigating matters on their own accord and attempting to hear both sides without a bias of liberal or conservative you only hear perhaps half a truth. Who is to say you will never know until you ask questions beyond what you read in front of you. You’ll find many of truths we hold onto as individuals are from holding a certain point of view.
Anyway let’s see you put your words into action as for your other questions on war and terrorism I’ll give it some thought and would be more than happy to learn from your actual exeperiences over any rehtoric you have read. Oh and as for “kicking my ass” you do make me laugh please save those lines for the playground BIG KISS to you
mike
Polls are examples of GIGO. The garbage going in is the misinformation and outright propaganda of the MSM, and naturally what comes out is also garbage.
You want to do a real poll? Go to a nice-sized city. Omaha, maybe, or Denver. Denver’s a leftist bastion in Colorado–go there. Pick out a thousand of each—Democrats, Republicans, and Independents. Now, divide each group in half. Poll your first five hundred of each group. But have the other five hundred of each group listen to speeches by returning servicemen and women, and by Iraqis. Show them the stats on the more than 3000 schools build by the US, the feeling of security in vast areas of Iraq that were formerly living under a cloud of fear due to the death squads, etc. Show them a map of Iraq, showing the safe areas and the dangerous ones, so they can see that more than 70% of the country is normalized, with people working, driving, going to school, etc. Explain that the newly risen casualty figures of American servicemen and women is directly related to the new, and extrememly effective, offensive actions taken against terrorist strongholds. Let those who have fought in these battles tell you what they thought of the Iraqis who fought with them—their ability, their training, their resolve. In other words, give them some facts to counter the full-court press of negativism they usually get. And then poll that group.
The difference in the poll numbers would prove the idiocy of the polling we do today.
Oh, and Cindy’s crew is getting on air-conditioned buses to go on a three week propaganda tour, no doubt with all the comforts they have enjoyed in Crawford (including catered meals). Why aren’t these buses, and these funds, and these caterers, going to Houston to help out with the disaster relief? Or to New Orleans, or to Gulfport?
No, the BDS Tour is a lot more fun, and self-indulgent.